[this was written on May 18, mostly on the basis of my memory. There are also some scratch notes of the beginning of the meeting]

I had suggested that Ed Gordon and I meet to discuss some of the issues raised during the first meetings between Bettina Jean-Louis, Kimberly Hearn and Linda about our possible role in relation to the HCZ evaluation project. This was transformed by Ed into a joint meeting with him, the two from HCZ and the person they have hired to make observations, Brenda Meija. This was to take place at Ed's place in Pomona, NY.

It was arranged that Brenda would drive us. She picked us up in a car driven by her husband (faculty at SUNY, New Paltz).

Most of the meeting was given first, to clarifying relationships (mostly led by me emphasizing that we will not askinf to conduct our research through HCZ), discussing what is meant by an "ethnographic evaluation" and thrashing out what kinds of observations would be done, and whether the draft protocole would be used, solely or in conjunction with other forms of note taking.

It was mostly decided that the 9 week observation for evaluation of the Baby College would serve as a kind of pilot for the next step focusing on the pre-school and/or Head Start program (this appears to be made of half-dozen classrooms.

There was an interesting discussion on a matter initiated by Bettina when we were discussing what was the goal of the evaluation. After making a general statement of the kind "we want to know whether what we want to accomplish is actually getting accomplish," she elaborated that they want the women in the Baby College not only to learn but also to implement in their own lives what they are being taught. She gave as an example of "our" [it was clear to me at the moment that she was telling us about recurrent conversations among the top staff of HCZ] problem what had been observed during the session on disciplining children. It appears that the women, as they get to talking among themselves regularly agree to methods that are precisely not the ones that the teachers want them to use, and that they are observed using precisely these dis-approved methods [I had a sense that this meant physical punishment]. They are trying to change what the women are doing

{This appears to me something that is precisely what we are looking for; first as evidence that people do do what we have been saying they do and that is poorly represented in the literature; and, second, about the conditions of institutions or experts when their teaching is not accompanied by state forms of authority. I wonder whether one of HCZ task, like I suspect we will find it one of the task of the churches, to establish other forms of ("moral"?) authority.
We are looking here at two forms of education: peer education and the education of the professionals--and thus "program evaluation"}

At the end I asked Bettina whether we could interview her about HCZ. She agreed easily and started talking about it, some of the less well-known program, and particularly their new (?) program to help students whom they helped graduate from high school actually and start college actually finish college. She said something to the effect that they can't handle the facts of college life (she mentioned roommates) or the academic pressures (writing different sorts of papers)

{The more I hear about HCZ, the more it reminds me of the Jesuit "nativity schools" that Mullooly worked on}